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Post by Hanni on 17th June 2019, 09:49

Hi,

I'm a bit upset because my guide has been reported. I talked to one of the devs about some missing achievements and he told me that he wants to keep them secret - that the players and the community should find them. Then I found potential issues with one/two achievements and wrote the dev about them. Instead of a reply he removed me as a friend and probably reported the guide.

I used to love the game, it took me hours to discover and analyze the secrets and achievements - and it was still in progress. The purpose of a guide is to help others, to unveil secrets. And I'm doing this for a long time already, having met lots of awesome devs who either supported me or were happy that I put so much time in their game. I'm sad, that this isn't the case with Myha.

I even got a time ban for the Steam community. Please, make it public again. It doesn't violate any "Steam Community & Content Guidelines". Or if so, please let me know and I will remove these parts.
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Post by Simon_Icehouse on 17th June 2019, 10:13

Hi Hanni,

Thanks for writing to us. I'm sorry for what happened, it has to be a kind of misunderstanding.

I'm one of the 2 devs of Myha, but wasn't aware of this situation (I didn't connect on Steam lately, I'm busy on Adventure Game Jam). So if something happened to your guide, it can only be on Denis' side. I'll see with him if he did something by mistake on the community forums. I personally find it great when players share their love about our games, that's why I became a developer, to read the comments and see the discussions about my creations. There has been several guides posted for my other games (ASA, Catyph, Kitrinos), so why not on Myha?

On the other hand, I know that Denis wants to prevent people to rely too much on walkthroughs, so if your guide was very detailed that might be the reason? I feel that what happened is that he only wanted to avoid spoilers to spread online, since the game is still quite new, as we would like our players to solve the puzzles on their own as much as possible (which is the best way to enjoy the world of Myha).
If it is the case, it is a delicate situation, because we have to find the good balance between, on the one hand, the need to keep the solutions of the puzzles as secret as possible, and on the other hand, people like you who are passionate and want to share their love for games through guides and videos.  

Making guides is great, I know that it takes a lot of time, screenshots, writing texts, etc. I hope we can find a way to have your guide back on Steam.
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Post by Hanni on 17th June 2019, 10:28

Thanks for your very fast and kind response! I really appreciate it.

It was indeed very detailed and I can understand that solutions and secrets are more fun when they are solved without any help. But it depends on the person, and only he or she should decide if he or she wants to use a guide. I will add a spoiler warning to the introduction (I usually do this, but forgot it in this case).

Moreover, I'm a bit confused because of the friend removal after the report of two potentionally broken achievements. Could you do me a favor and check if they are working in the current build? I tried to avoid the following spoilers and I'm sorry that they are shown here now:

I think the "Pirates !" achievement is for listenting to the pirate voice message after interacting with the red x nearby the waterfall and the "Postcard 2" achievement is somewhere next to the cave entrance. Both are not working if I have analyzed everything in the correct way.

Thanks for your time, again, I really appreciate your answer.
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Post by Simon_Icehouse on 17th June 2019, 11:04

I'm afraid I can't help about the friend removal... Wait and see if Denis comes around, he will probably have an explanation.

Regarding the broken achievements, it is complicated too, because it can come from our settings in Steam or from the programming in Unreal Engine (because both have to be connected together for the achievements to work), so if there really is an issue let's hope we can find it.
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Post by Hanni on 17th June 2019, 14:01

Thanks for checking them and your great support!
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Post by Yazorius on 17th June 2019, 15:08

This is indeed a big dilemma here: to help the players, but not to make accessible all the solutions in one time. Because the life time of an adventure game depends on the time spent thinking. Similarly for the difficulty felt. Thus, if a player follows a walkthrough without getting lost and without searching, he can easily have a totally false idea of ​​the life span, the difficulty of the game, and therefore the interest of the game itself.

Long time ago , there were cheat-codes for action games / platform, to facilitate the passages, to make immortal, ... Nowadays, these tricks are gone so that the games have a difficulty measured but real, and that players experience a gaming experience as planned. Designers often ensure that nothing harms the difficulty and duration of their games via cheat tools. Why would not it be possible to desire to keep the same interest of the game for adventure games? I'm sure that the current players have nt seen their ability to address increase at the expense of their ability to think ...

Thus, without obviously falling into the will of any banishment, it is likely and logical that Denis has first wanted to protect the life time of his riddles. Especially since the game is still recent, and the temptation to read everything, will quickly spoil everything in the eyes of the developper. Because nothing is more frustrating than seeing his hours spent developing a world, riddles, and facing various bugs to improve the whole gaming experience, end up in a game finished in a few hours by reading a walkthrough that details what 'We have to do. Because we are finally far from a Guide, when everything is said, and much closer to a complete "assistantship".

So, yes the player may want help if he is stuck. Normal. But is there not an integrated forum for everyone in Steam to ask questions and participate in the game activity on these pages? Again, what a misfortune that players end up just reading alone, without further intervention, comment, question, criticism ... As players, people have indeed desires that should to be satisfied, but the developer also has his his vision of his work to defend. That's why I talked about "dilemma". A difficult balance to achieve if everyone does everything without communicating. I am absolutely certain that a guide as such can be created, with the consent, and why not the help, of Denis.

And for the ban, I already received a Steam warning myself once, when a developer wanted to remove (without asking me) a screenshot that I had uploaded to Steam: Steam then deleted the capture and considered that I had made a mistake deserving a Blame ... thing that the developer had not planned, nor even imagined it could be possible, lol. Proof that a direct communication will always be the best solution: if you want to make a guide on Myha, do not hesitate to contact directly Denis, in aim to tell him, and see with you the best way to make everyone happy, players and developers.
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Post by Hanni on 17th June 2019, 16:14

"Thus, without obviously falling into the will of any banishment, it is likely and logical that Denis has first wanted to protect the life time of his riddles."

I absolutely agree with you, that is understandable. But he only answered once to my questions (and the guide was already live back then) and suddenly stopped every communication and reported the guide overnight - without asking me to remove it or to make it more spoiler free. And that is in my eyes totally wrong. The guide doesn't violate any Community Guidline on Steam, it was totally legit - like your screenshot.

I intended to cooperate with Denis, I asked him about a few achievements I wasn't able to unlock or because they might be broken. I would have immediately changed some of the guide's content. But he decided to ignore, in fact even removed me as a friend.
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Post by Yazorius on 17th June 2019, 16:40

In fact, it was necessary to contact him BEFORE uploading the guide : so he could be aware before, and tell you if he finds the initiative interesting (it is about HIS game), if he can help you, and if it's the right time or not to do it. Denis is adorable, but he turns quickly as soon as somebody touches his virtual babies (I'm probably worse than him ^^). On the Internet, it's hard not to be confronted with different opinions and unpleasant actions, but in the eyes of a developer, it's always a terrible thing to feel helpless about the reactions and actions of others about what he created by himself.

I maintain that it is a safe bet that Denis "saw red" that a complete walkthrough is already proposed, without his consent and knowledge, and he simply asked Steam to remove the solution directly, which triggered the automatic Steam blame system. Probably Denis is not even aware that there may be such consequences to removing a guide (as it was the case with my screenshot). The thread of this conversation should sooner or later fall on his ear, and even if he has blocked you on Steam (probably because you have in his eyes teased the life time of his new game), he'll be able to read you here, and maybe unlock you on Steam if needed (again, I wonder how Steam handles this type of thing ...).

A puzzle game developer is a trapper for the players: his pleasure is that the players fall into his traps, and find a solution to get out. By giving all the solutions (even for the Steam success he just have finished to work on), you also remove the pleasure of the developer to see his traps work, to see the players get by, by their own, search, understand, and make efforts to appropriate the logic of the developer. Revealing all the secrets is for most developers the best way to ruin all their interest.

Whatever happens, you did well to come to this forum to talk about it: communication is the best way to solve problems by clarifying the situation and the opinion of each part.
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Post by Hanni on 17th June 2019, 17:02

Unfortunately, this is wrong. There is no need to contact devs before posting guides, uploading screenshots or streaming games via Steam. You can check their guidelines. I would like to link them here, but the forum doesn't grant me the right to do so.
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Post by Simon_Icehouse on 17th June 2019, 18:27

Anyway if you need help to find the last achievements in the game, there will be Community Playthrough on the forums of planete-aventure.net very soon. There people will help each other to finish the game, and everyone can ask questions. So if there is a missing achievement or something not working, Denis will be aware of it, and I have no doubt that he will do his best to fix it. He did a very hard work on Myha, even after the game release. He has another real job: making games is not his main activity, he does it only in his free time and without being paid. I have no doubt that, because of his real job, he is often tired, and that could explain some mistakes or wrong decisions. However you can be sure that he doesn't want to hurt you or other players, and on the contrary he really loves to read the feedback of everyone.
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Post by Hanni on 17th June 2019, 18:46

I'm really grateful for your words and I'm looking forward to contributing in the forums.

But for now, it would be great if you or Denis could revoke the ban.


Last edited by Hanni on 17th June 2019, 19:17; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Simon_Icehouse on 17th June 2019, 19:03

you or Denis
I cannot do anything about the ban... I don't know why or how you have been banned, and I'm not very interested to know how Steam works on this point.
It is not related to my Steam account or to my decision. I was only the author of the world, and the creator of the opening/ending movies.
I sent an email to Denis earlier, but as I said he has a real job, a kid, and he probably wants to get some rest too... I think you will have to wait, I'm sorry for that, I can't help more.
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Post by Prom361 on 17th June 2019, 20:07

I'm looking for the BAN problem, but there are no options and in the BAN parts on Myha, Hanni does not appear.
so I'm going to send a message to Steam, telling them that I made a mistake (which is true: I didn't want BAN Hanni, I just wanted to hide the completion guide)

I just wanted to give other players a chance to enjoy the adventure, not completely block Hanni's account...

PS: Ticket open in STEAM. we wait. bye
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Post by Simon_Icehouse on 17th June 2019, 21:19

Thanks Denis for getting a look. I had no doubt that it was due to a mistake. There are many options in Steam for developers, we don't know half of them.
Wait and see what Steam will say then!
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Post by Hanni on 17th June 2019, 23:37

Hey Denis thanks for your answer. But I meant the ban for the guide, you didn't hide it you completey banned it. Actually, hiding isn't even an option that Steam provides. I think I can still post discussions but I've always talked about the guide. I understand that you don't like it, but you could have send me a message what I should change. Btw there are already several complete walkthroughs on YouTube.

I got a message from you telling me that you don't want to unveil the secrets for others, that the players should find them. So I wrote a WiP guide and even added a note for other people that any additional help is highly appreciated. I wanted to create a community guide where everyone who plays the game can contribute, can be motivated to look closer or can get help. It wasn't even a walkthrough, it was an achievement guide.

Edit: Yes I wrote in the first message that I got a time ban. But it was limited and was for all discussions on Steam. It was only 6 hours long.
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Post by Prom361 on 18th June 2019, 16:20

absolutely: as I have already asked you: can you wait a few more weeks before sharing your guide? then you will have all the answers to your questions.
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Post by Hanni on 18th June 2019, 17:32

Oh, I haven't seen the message you are mentioning yet. But okay, if you revoke the ban I will make the guide completely private until July 1st. But you have to consider that other players could have the same idea as me and write new guides since they won't see that there is already one.

My idea (if this is okay for you, otherwise I will make it private for the mentioned time): I will remove the part that's about the puzzles and I'll give only hints about the secrets, not screenshots - until July. Then it will be more detailed again.

Additionally, I would really appreciate it if you could check some of the achievements again. I know I've often mentioned it but I really want that it doesn't remain unnoticed in the discussion about the ban. I doubt that all of them are working. I know you tested them and I saw your timestamps, but when I'm right there was an update shortly after it. I've written already 110+ guides and was in contact with several developers who first thought everything would work fine but then found bugs shortly afterwards - even big developers/publishers as Cyan Ventures or Red Thread Games.
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Post by Prom361 on 18th June 2019, 20:19

It's too short for July 1st. It will be time for me to finish a "Play Together" that I organize with friends in private on a forum. It will start at the end of the week, and I don't know how long it will go on. I think it'll be quick, I'll let you know. I will make a "light" but complete version on STEAM (in "discussions" part of hub): You will be able to follow it and participate (and help other players as well) and also update your guide if you wish.

Unfortunately, I don't have your guide in the list of guides on Myha. I think it has been deleted.
Can you create a new one?

I'll check for bugs.
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Post by Hanni on 18th June 2019, 22:07

If you don't mind I will re-add you on Steam and send you the link. I don't even mind adding you as a contributor to the guide - so you can edit parts you think that are too detailed or maybe even incorrect.
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Post by Prom361 on 19th June 2019, 19:38

for the moment, in your guide, you can leave the whole first part: the solution, it doesn't bother me, it's already available on YouTube too.

concerning the achievements, you can leave all those of the main adventure: from 00 (In the Sky) to 09 (The End)

after, I would like you to hide all the other achievements.
you can leave the names if you want, but don't put (for the moment) the clues...
you can give them (the clues) as you progress through the "play together" if you wish! with pleasure.

and finally, I propose you to leave a little message, in the achievement part, to say that it was me who asked you not to post them right away
a message like this:
"the developers asked me to hide this part temporarily until we could finish the "play together""

is all this okay with you?
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Post by Hanni on 19th June 2019, 20:54

Absolutely!
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