[Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

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[Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Simon_Icehouse on 19th February 2019, 15:20

On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

A letter to all of you.

-----------------------------------------------------
------------------IMPORTANT-------------------
--- PLEASE READ (TAKE YOUR TIME) ---
---------- You can do it! Good luck ----------
-----------------------------------------------------


Dear Members and Friends,

As The Icehouse approaches its 5th Year of existence, some of the original Members are beginning to think about a reorganization of the collective, in order to make it easier to access, and more user-friendly for everyone! Please accept our apologies for the length of this message, but we felt that we needed to explain ourselves in enough detail.

Our Existing Structure

When you joined the collective (most of the time as Friends first), you normally were told about the main differences between the Members and Friends statuses and given the possibility to become Members later if you felt ready for it. As a Member you would be expected to be involved in the more important decisions and to be more involved generally, but as a result you would benefit from more public exposure on our sites, etc. It seemed normal to us that the Members would be somehow rewarded for their additional work behind the scenes, for trying to keep the community united and alive, and for their responsibilities regarding the future of the whole collective.

Nominally we are indeed a “Collective” which implies an equal share in terms of artistic contribution and decision making. However, the reality seems to be a bit different.

How we are changing from the “Original” structure

Recently we have had an increasing number of interesting collaborations between some of us, and this has exposed potential misunderstandings regarding the initial statuses within The Icehouse. There have also been situations where decisions have had to be taken, but only a few of the current Members have made contributions to them.

This has led to us looking at:
- what The Icehouse really is
- where it might be going
- and how to expand and “Simplify/Democratise” the group.

Members, Friends & Guests

Currently we have:
- Members (who take the decisions, who are (generally) the most active people, but also includes some who are not that active)
- Friends (people that The Icehouse supports and who support us, and who can become Members more easily)
- and Guests (people who are not yet part of the collective but who can participate to our public discussions, and for whom it can be easier to become Friends later).

What The Icehouse really is

Something of real importance has happened quite recently in our history: in order to help and reward our most active Friends, we have given more and more online presence to them during the past years, sharing their news and projects on our sites without distinction from the Members. Because of this, the barrier between the two statuses has become more narrow, and today many of us no longer fully understand the original implications of these “Titles”.

In addition, the core Members have always tended to be the ones making the decisions about the future of the collective, which is exactly how we intended to work initially. However some of us have not had the time or opportunity to contribute (for whatever reason – some personal, some work-related?) and remained silent. And then next to this, some Friends have been extremely active and involved in new Projects.

As a result, this brought forward new ideas for us to consider for a new version of the collective!

Where it might be going – how to expand and “Simplify/Democratise” The Icehouse

The Icehouse is, effectively, a community of “Artists” and “Creatives”. It is perfectly natural that different individuals will approach the community in different ways.
- Some will look for inspiration, encouragement, advice and/or PR exposure (for themselves).
- Some will offer inspiration, encouragement, experience, etc (given for free to the rest of the group).
- Each will be on one side of that story at one time, and then on the other side at another time.

Because of this, and the increase in our numbers, we feel that we are now more of a Collaborative Community, rather than a Collective.

As a result of this, the previous definitions of a “Member”, “Friend” and “Guest” no longer truly apply today. It is, in our view, utterly unrealistic to expect the current structures to adequately maintain, run, organise and expand The Icehouse.

As a result, we (Simon, Juanjo, and Roger), would like to ask your opinion on the next phase for The Icehouse.

Our proposal is that:


1. We move from the original structure of “Member”, “Friend” and “Guest” to just “Member” (yes, for everyone!), with still a "Guests" group (= those who just visit our sites).
2. Nevertheless, there will still be a need to have an “Administrative” function within The Icehouse, and we would like to suggest that (for now) that role is fulfilled by Simon, Juanjo, and Roger, who will take and make decisions on behalf of The Icehouse (consulting all members if a wide view/consultation is necessary). Please note that this is not an attempt at a “Power-Grab” - all we want is to more accurately reflect the current nature of The Icehouse.
3. The Icehouse remains an open collaborative community, with active members, but becomes more of a “Community” rather than a “Collective”, as explained previously.
4. The name of the group remains however “The Icehouse Collective” – changing this would prove to be both complicated (logo, etc), and potentially detrimental to what we have achieved as a group so far.
“We are The Icehouse Collective, a Collaborative Community of Artists and Creatives!”

What you can do to help

Please share your opinion about this, as we (Roger, Simon, Juanjo) really value your comments and input to the group, and please do so within the next two weeks. If you do not respond, we will have to take your silence as agreement with what we propose, but we would be so much happier if you could make a contribution to the discussion (This is only a discussion at this time – but we will have to make some decision in the near future).

If you wish to, please submit your own proposals (which will be fully considered but, if deemed inappropriate or not viable, we will not accept - we will provide explanations/arguments as to why we deem them so), which we can then discuss/agree on.

Also let us know if you don't understand, if you are lost, or if you don't see the implications of these changes. Everything must be clear for all those who wish to continue this great collective adventure! We have all learned from each other, we have evolved by discovering each other's projects, and more than ever before: unity is strength!


Last edited by Simon_Icehouse on 1st March 2019, 17:57; edited 1 time in total
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Simon_Icehouse on 19th February 2019, 16:35

The above announcement was written with Roger and Juanjo, but on a more personal note I would like to add that we have also talked of many different ways to improve the collective and reach these new goals (some suggestions: use Discord more efficiently, vote for the admins, have a yearly "general assembly", etc... - all ideas to be discussed properly later). There are many ways to create the Icehouse v2.0 but before we take any decision, we definetely need to know your point of view, what you think should be modified, what you need (new tools, etc), and eventually how we can do that, etc. Thanks!
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Josiah1221 on 19th February 2019, 18:25

“We are The Icehouse Collective, a Collaborative Community of Artists and Creatives!”

I love this quote, it represents what we truly are! Very Happy I really like the idea of the community being unified, we all work together (collaborate) in different ways so it seems fitting that "titles" are no longer needed or relevant for that matter. Obviously Simon, Roger and Juanjo are the admins and should remain so. (The founding fathers of this wonderful community)

The only thing I have to add at the moment is I think the "general assembly" idea is a good one, but instead of every year maybe quarterly instead. That way we all keep focused on what's important and everyone can have an opportunity to give ideas of improvement if and when needed.

That's all I have for now. Thanks guys!
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Prom361 on 19th February 2019, 21:54

hello to all
I'll give you my opinion on the situation (on my side)
there are several reasons for my not being present (or reduced) on the forum: and they are, for me, good excuses but they do not affect my opinion on The Icehouse: a collective to help each other, to learn, to have fun and share

1) I'm extremely busy with RealMyha, and when I'm finished, I'll finally get back to a normal life I hope, until my next project...

2) English, unfortunately, slows me down Sad
even if I read it not too badly, and even if there are translators, I am not at ease and I feel "muzzled" by the obligation to write in English.
I like to make big sentences and explain myself clearly (as long as I can) but in English it's much more difficult

3) when I have some free time, I don't think about coming here often unfortunately Sad
Moreover, it is interesting to note that I was much more present BEFORE starting the RealMyha project.

Anyway, that's my current position.

about the future of The IceHouse: yes, any simplification is good to take!
maybe less status?, maybe a more simple forum?
a community of self-help and sharing rather than a collective, it seems good to me, and that's how I saw the group
so everyone helps as they can and want

good luck for the future, and thank you to the more active members for continuing to keep the forum alive.
I don't know how some of you do it so well! ahah!

See you soon!
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Rehvaro on 19th February 2019, 22:57

Hello,

What to say, I think all of this is very good. I'm 100% with you Smile And I hope it will allow an even better IceHouse to exists Smile

Even if I don't come and talk regularly for weeks now (As Prom, sometime English slow me as well, because I'm not very good with languages), and don't have work on any project seriously. My Job, some video-games, and learning Japanese take a lot of my time. But I will definitely not quit this community Smile

But I'm very thankful for all your advice, your help about game making; So, thank you very much Smile
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by jacarvajal on 20th February 2019, 00:31

Hi everyone,

I'm so sorry I have not been as active. I can not give a good enough reason, except that sometimes life happens. I still watch and repost whenever I can on social media, but I know I fall under the "not active member" category and I apologize.

I think the new model is a good step forward for The Icehouse, I always felt that there was a core group that started and ran the group, and we all came to collaborate and talk, so I think this will work well.

I'm not a very active person in my personal life either so please don't think that I am ignoring everyone, it is just the way I am T___T
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Simon_Icehouse on 20th February 2019, 09:37

Thank you guys for your answers! That'll help us a lot to come with a more complete update of our current way of working together.

I would just like to add that the goal of this announcement is not to make anyone feel guilty about a lack of presence here! We understand very well the difficulties of each one (it never hurts to say it again!).
Of course we would like you all to share your ideas and inspiration more often (particularly Members), that is how the collective can enrich itself and work, but life is life!

Usually it just takes a bit of training to connect here two to three times a week and to read/reply (quickly) to the new discussions (there aren't so many news every week, it depends on the periods), but maybe the forums are not the good tool, maybe we need something similar but more modern, that can be accessed on your phones for example?
That was one of the reasons we opened a Discord account. Anyone knows if it can be linked with the forums in an efficient way? A fusion between Discord and the forums?

Language is a problem, okay. We're writing it down for later.
I don't really realize it, with all the translators that exist today. But it's understandable, I also find it easier to write directly in French on the forums of course.
But on the other hand, when I force myself to write in English I take it as a training, and a good way not to lose my skills! Smile
But I know it's hard and it's not relaxing to have to follow conversations in another language.

Looking forward to read more opinions from other members and friends!! Laughing
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Juanjo_LS on 20th February 2019, 11:31

Thanks for the first comments and opinions!

I totally agree with Simon, this community was born to help and share what each one can, no one should feel guilty about anything.
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by RogerCAKT on 20th February 2019, 12:15

To everyone who has commented so far - Many many thanks for your responses. We are a community, and a community cannot exist or evolve without involvement/discussion, even if that involvement is only occasional.

No individual should feel any fault for only being an infrequent visitor - as we said:
"However some of us have not had the time or opportunity to contribute (for whatever reason – some personal, some work-related?),
by which we intended - we understand that not everyone may be able to or wish to be very actively involved - this is called "Life"

All we really ask is that we keep in touch and help where we are able.
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Rehvaro on 20th February 2019, 12:37

@Simon_Icehouse wrote:
Language is a problem, okay. We're writing it down for later.
I don't really realize it, with all the translators that exist today. But it's understandable, I also find it easier to write directly in French on the forums of course.
But on the other hand, when I force myself to write in English I take it as a training, and a good way not to lose my skills! Smile
But I know it's hard and it's not relaxing to have to follow conversations in another language.

Just to be sure, I don't think writing in english will prevent me for talking with you all.
It's just that sometime it's more difficult to express complex ideas, so I keep things simple Smile
But I don't think anything should change about this point, english is still the better tool I know for us to communicate with each others Smile
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by RogerCAKT on 20th February 2019, 13:00

To everyone whose native language is not English, or have difficulty in understanding/expressing English - why not write in your native language and just "Google Translate" or use another translator of your choice and post that translation with your native original. Ask in your own language (with translation), and we will do what we can to (hopefully) answer.

We are Artists and Creatives - we should not hold any bias regarding the language we use - be it paint, ink, music, programming, words, etc. The reason for our general use of English is that what we hope to produce is (ordinarily) more viable using the English language (particularly where any text is concerned).

The decision to use English was taken at a very early stage in our existence for precisely that reason. As Simon has said, the exercise of writing in English can be a useful tool in itself, but, if you struggle, use my suggestion - we will not regard you any less for that fact - I can assure you!
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by PythonBlue on 20th February 2019, 22:08

Just saw this notice now at long last, and I'm a little confused: this whole time I thought this group of creative people was about collaboration. Still, I'm fine with whatever needs to be done to keep this group alive. Smile
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Simon_Icehouse on 21st February 2019, 08:38

Yes Python Blue, that is what we are, a group of collaboration, a community of creators who help each other. Isn't it what we said in the announcement? What is it that makes you think differently? Please let us know! This is important.

Edit:
After a bit of thinking...  Razz
The original purpose of the collective was not exactly the same as it is now. indeed, today we are more a group of collaboration (as you said), at least more than we initially thought when the project started in 2014.
Maybe that is what you wanted to hilight?

The original identity of the collective is still available online for everyone to look at, on the main site of the collective, menu About Us / Presentation:
http://www.theicehouse.fr/about-us.html
This describes well what we used to be, where we were heading..... but things have changed! (as we tried to say in the announcement)
As you can see there was at the beginning an idea around "indie publishing", which is why we have a page for Released Projects. This page will probably still exist later, but we will forget some of the first ideas.
Today we want to be closer to our current identity with all of you, try to make projects with those who are interested and who bring the ideas and resources, and that is why we want to create the Icehouse 2.0

But, even for Juanjo, Roger and me, I have the feeling that it is not always very clear, even after talking about it for days, so it is very important that we all understand it in the same way. Then don't be afraid to insist on your own ideas and to share your thoughts. Thanks!
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Ormusto on 21st February 2019, 10:35

Well I agree with the general idea. Simplifying is always good.

I really want to provide suggestions but It's not easy.

We all have different situations, background, schedule, tools etc. which is a strength but also a weakness.

Like Prom361, I'm also personally too much busy with my own project and this is something I need to fix after this one. I don't even have free time for myself. I really want to be active and collaborate on some interesting projects. So I will decrease the scope of my games in the future and split my time with collabs (here or elsewhere). I will need to reorganise my schedule.

When it comes to English I agree it's a double effort for some of us but it remains the best way to communicate. After all this is the default language all around the world. And this community is not limited to a unique country.
I agree with you Simon when you say it's an opportunity to practice an important skill. It's not wasted.

I think there's too much sub-forums. For example, "your tastes", "chit chat" and "other discussions" Should be exclusively on the Facebook group or Discord which seems more appropriate places for this. That way we separate the collab/"pro" areas and the off-topic/personal areas. For me Discord and Facebook don't fit well for "pro" topics.
Traditionnal forum remains the best way.

So instead of trying to merge Discord and the forum, I propose to clearly separate both of them from each other. For example we should not see project/collab-related topics on Discord.

I also propose to have a big collab section which is well organized. Right now it's not so obvious. For example "Mon village est tragique" is on "YOUR CREATIONS" which is confusing. Collab should have their dedicated section with a precise nomenclature inside posts.

Also did you know about this tool? Artella (still in beta though)
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Simon_Icehouse on 22nd February 2019, 11:11

Thanks everyone.

@Ormusto: no I didn't know Artella and it's very interesting! Maybe not in the current case of the collective, but for future projects it could really help. Many thanks for sharing!

Our Friend SeamousMcFly also told me recently that there were too many forums categories and that we should try to simplify.
These are good ideas.
Anyway we knew that the forums would have to be modified for the Icehouse v2, so we will see that in time!
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Simon_Icehouse on 23rd February 2019, 13:39

Anyone else?
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Seb on 25th February 2019, 15:30

Hello everyone,

It's a bit messy but spontaneous, so I feel like a little on the periphery of the subject.

I am looking for the interest of the guest status. In the case where the forum remains private for the projects, the possibility of creating an airlock for the newcomer (voluntary or brought) allows to have a look on the forum to decide whether or not it interests him to stay or to invest more remains for me a good idea.
It is also a way to see the level of interest of the newcomer without artificially inflating the number of members that would disappear the day after registration. In the case of spontaneous registrations.
Project creators should say if they agree so that a "tourist" can see their project. If the friend status no longer exists than they are the conditions to become a member of a private forum ... To be invited: P
I am a guest (or friend I do not even know anymore with a semi private status for projects)) and this distinction was for me the limit between those who invest in / with the projects of others and those who remain a little in withdrawal, for the reasons that belong to them, but who considers important, useful, to be in the circle anyway.

My participation is to be part of a team represented by Prom, to make alpha games for some members, a little com for some projects and participation in a collective project.

These activities do not feed the forum directly because often my exchanges are done live with Simon or with Prom.
It is easier for me who is "mono-activity", but also, to resume some points mentioned, because the forum is difficult for me in its diversity of subject and in the language (it's my problem, but if I have to give 2/3 hours to understand what is said, spontaneity is not there).


In summary, my personal experience will not make me come over if I am a member.
Many projects pleased me but I did not deepen because English is a difficulty for me. But English must be the official language of the forum, it is a practical and historical choice. Both reasons are enough for me.

Regarding the form I feel a difficulty to understand the logic of the forum, I find that there is a lot of open topic of discussions and the identification of projects suffers, or genres, but 70% of this difficulty comes from the language I think.

The democratic side is good but a forum must have a trunk of rules which belongs to it, which gives it its identity and which protects its identity, before everyone is entitled to say anything and everything (more than now^^'). If Simon, Roger and Juanjo believe that the current charter poses sufficiently the rules of the forum, then the forum is already democratic because it seems to me that one can submit, debate, propose, claim, etc ... with a lot of tolerance from the creators.
At my level and with what I just told you from my experience the IceHouse, and not only the forum, it's collaborative, that's how I live it.

I am for the 3 laws of robotics, but if HAL 9000 did not kill we would not have had 2001 the odissée of space ... What a dilemma: D


----------------------------------------------------
FR
----------------------------------------------------

Bonjour à tous,

C'est un peu brouillon mais spontané, aussi j'ai l'impression d'être un peu à la périphérie du sujet.

Je cherche l'intéret du statut invité. Dans le cas ou le forum reste privé pour les projets, la possibilité de créer un sas pour le nouvel arrivant ( volontaire ou amené) permet d'avoir un regard sur le forum pour  décider si oui ou non ça l'intéresse de rester ou de s'investir plus reste pour moi une bonne idée.
C'est aussi une façon de voir le niveau d'intéret du nouvel arrivant sans gonfler artificiellement le nombres de membres qui disparaitrait le lendemain de leur inscription. Dans le cas d'inscriptions spontanées.
Les créateurs de projets devraient dire s'ils sont d'accords pour qu'un ""touriste"" puisse voir leur projet. Si le statut ami n'existe plus qu'elles sont les conditions pour devenir membre d'un forum privé...Etre invité Razz
Je suis un invité (ou ami je ne sais même plus avec un statut semi privé pour les projets)) et cette distinction était pour moi la limite entre ceux qui s'investissent dans /avec les projets des autres et ceux qui reste un peu en retrait, pour les raisons qui leur appartiennent, mais qui estime important, utile, d'être dans le cercle quand même.

Mes participations sont de faire partie d'une équipe représentée par Prom, de faire des alpha de jeux pour certains membres, un peu de com pour certains projets et une participation à un projet collectif.

Ces activités ne nourissent pas le forum directement car souvent mes échanges se font en direct avec Simon ou avec Prom.
C'est plus facile pour moi qui suis "mono-activité", mais aussi , pour reprendre certains point évoqués, parce que le forum est difficile pour moi dans sa diversité  de sujet et dans la langue (c'est mon problème, mais si je dois donner 2/3 heures pour comprendre ce qui se dit, la spontanéité n'est pas là).


En résumé, mon expérience personnelle ne me fera pas venir plus si je suis un membre.
Beaucoup de projet m'ont plu mais je n'ai pas approfondi parce que l'anglais est une difficulté pour moi. Mais l'anglais doit être la langue officielle du forum, c'est un choix pratique et historique . Les deux raisons sont suffisantes pour moi.

Concernant la forme je ressens une difficulté à comprendre la logique du forum, je trouve qu'il y a beaucoup de sujet ouvert de discussions et l'identifications des projets s'en ressent, ou des genres, mais 70% de cette difficulté vient de la langue je pense.

Le coté démocratique c'est bien mais un forum doit avoir un tronc de règles qui lui appartient, qui lui donne son identité et qui protège son identité, avant que tout le monde est le droit de dire tout et n'importe quoi (plus que maintenant^^'). Si Simon, Roger et Juanjo estime que la charte actuelle pose suffisamment les règles propres au forum, alors le forum est déja démocratique car il me semble que l'on peut soumettre, débattre, proposer, revendiquer, etc...avec beaucoup de tolérance de la part des créateurs.
A mon niveau et avec ce que je viens de vous dire de mon expérience le The IceHouse, et pas seulement le forum, c'est du collaboratif, c'est comme ça que je le vis.

Je suis pour les 3 lois de la robotique , mais si HAL 9000 n'avait pas tué on aurait pas eu 2001 l'odissée de l'espace...Quel dilemme Very Happy
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by RogerCAKT on 25th February 2019, 15:50

Seb - Merci beaucoup pour votre contribution - elle est appréciée
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Simon_Icehouse on 25th February 2019, 17:24

Hi Seb,
Thanks, we will take your ideas into account for the future!

Regarding the question of having a "airlock" between Members and Guests, it was initially one of the many purposes of the Friends status.
We will see what is possible to do easily to help with this.

-------------------------------
FR
-------------------------------

Salut Seb,
Merci nous tiendrons compte de tes idées pour l'avenir !

Quant à la question d'un "sas" entre les membres et les invités, il s'agissait à l'origine d'un des nombreux buts du statut intermédiaire Friends.
Nous verrons ce qu'il est possible de faire facilement pour résoudre ça.
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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Andy_TheMechanism on 25th February 2019, 20:03

Hello guys,
sorry for the delay, but I'm a very busy dad :-)
Now I can finally answer. I agree with the new collective / community organization. I would also like more improve the PR sector in order to increase the visibility of the members of the collective, this is an old idea of mine that I had discussed with Simon. I will try to do it with my blog andyrinaldi.com (italian language) which is focused on the development of indie games.
Have a nice week!
Andy_TheMechanism
Andy_TheMechanism
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Messages : 2
Date d'inscription : 2019-02-06
Age : 47
Localisation : Madrid

http://themechanism.itch.io

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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

Post by Juanjo_LS on 25th February 2019, 21:34

Seb, Andy, thanks for your ideas and opinions!

I'm seeing very interesting things...
Juanjo_LS
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Messages : 2356
Date d'inscription : 2015-10-12
Localisation : Spain

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Re: [Very important] On building together The Icehouse V2.0!

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